Disappointment and Discipline

>> Tuesday, January 1, 2008

Lucas playing on the beach over Christmas.

The two topics on my mind today.

First disappointment. Stupid Gators. Any sports fan knows that few things have the power to make you totally bummed as when your team is projected to win, should win, and then they play poorly and lose. It was close most of the game and the Gators couldn't pull it out. It was not Timmy's fault at all. He played great. Our defense just gave it away. O.K., enough football. But it really did TOTALLY bum me out. Utter disappointment.

Now discipline. Lucas is getting to that age where we need to decide how we are going to discipline him and be ultra-consistent with it. I ask him something simple like "please stop kicking" during a diaper change. He looks at me and continues kicking with that knowing half-smile like he understood what I asked and has chosen not to comply. That isn't just a toddler not knowing how to behave. That is my almost two-year-old chosing not to do what I have asked him to do. How do I deal with that?

I have been doing time-outs. Sometimes I can tell he gets why he is sitting in the chair. After one minute, I kneel next to him and tell him gently that he needs to obey mommy and he needs to tell me he is sorry for disobeying. He sweetly says "sorry mommy" then gives me a hug. Other times, he smiles and laughs in the chair and thinks it is a game.
He is such a smart kid whose vocabulary astounds me. He remembers and recounts stories and events and puts together 5-6 word sentences. He can do puzzles by himself that are meant for kids 4and up. But sometimes I get the feeling that I am being played. I can't tell sometimes if he understands my commands and is blatantly disobeying or if I need to try different ways of teaching him proper behavior. There are times when the distinction is obvious but other times it is much more grey.

I am not opposed to the idea of spanking but if we do chose to spank him, I want it to be controlled and consistent and not in the moment out of frustration. At this point, I am not sure he would understand anything but discipline in the moment of the behavior needing disciplining. I don't want to just lash-out and spank. I want our discipline to be... well, I am not sure how to finish that sentence but spanking in the heat of the moment feels rash. I have done it, but didn't feel good about it. I want whatever we do to be intentional and loving and effective.
The other problem, he whines WAY too much. If things aren't exactly as he wants them to be, the whining starts. I tell him so often to stop the whining that now he says it to himself. But he still doesn't listen. He keeps whining.
I need some help. How do you discipline a 21month old who is very smart, very stubborn, but also very sweet and tender-hearted? How can I help him stop the whining and learn to consistently use his large vocabulary?

Lucas is a very loving, active, and imaginative child. I don't want to break his little spirit. But he can't continue down this whining, stubborn, pitch-a-fit path. How do I mother him with firm boundaries but also let him be a free-spirit? Both are so important. Loving discipline that allows him to fully be himself.... that is what I am looking for. Any ideas?


Rachael January 2, 2008 at 12:05 AM  

Hey Farrah! Sorry about the Gators :(.

In terms of discipline, I don't think time-outs are effective or helpful with toddlers for 'not listening' - for when they are melting down or need to be removed from a situatino to calm down, then they can be a good thing if done right. But not as a 'punishment' meant to inspire obedience.

What we do with David that works very well is to remember that he is learning things kinesthetically as well as verbally, so anything we ask/tell him to do we also help him do physically to illustrate not only what it means, but taht it *will* happen whether he chooses to comply on his own or we help him to comply.

So in the kicking example I would say "No kicking" and hold his legs down. When he looks at you with the half smile - remember that he's not thinking 'ooooohhhh, i want to disobey mom', he's thinking 'mom said 'no', will it actually happen?'

He's at the age where he's learning boundaries and he needs to know that your words mean business - and the best way to do that is to make sure that your words lead to what yu want to happen.

I'm coming at discipline from the mindset that it's not adversarial - it's not me vs. my child, it's me discipling my child and we're on the same team.

I really love the website www.gentlechristianmothers.com (they have an awesome message board with great discipline help/advice - and you don't have to fully agree with the statement of beliefs to join (they are anti-spanking, but there are a number of moms on there who do spank or whose husbands do and that's not an issue, you just can't post 'i love spanking' threads on there).

Anyway, it has helped me a lot in our parenting journey with David and the discipline help I have gotten there has been invaluable - it has really helped David be mroe compliant and lsiten to what we say, without us having to punish or feel that we are in a power struggle.

Rachael January 2, 2008 at 12:24 AM  

So apparently I don't have much to do at midnight except comment on your blog!

If you like to read, I can recommend a few really great parenting books that I have found helpful with David. Some are more meta-theory of grace-based discipline, others are a lot more practical.

When I think of discipline, my ultimate goal isn't David's obedience to me - it's him growing into an adult who has self-control, empathy, and good decision-making skills. So I choose my discipline approaches and philosophies with those end-goals in mind.

Too many Christian parenting books are focused on obedience (especially first-time obedience which I *really* disagree with scripturally) as the ultimate goal and what parents should strive for, and I think obedience is a byproduct of good discipline instead of the goal.

Atwood-Family of 3 January 2, 2008 at 7:25 AM  

Farrah-Your struggle is not unique. Anne and I seem to go through phases where she'll be super sweet and super obedient (and actually she is like that most of the time) and then times where she doesn't want to obey. We've had just a few "matches" where I've asked her to do something and I think she gets it and purposefully isn't obeying. But that has only happened maybe 3 or 4 times.

One thing I do, and I don't know how good or bad this is, is that I will warn her. Part of me thinks this is bad, but I will ask her several times to do something and if it's an issue I really want to press where I want her to get that she needs to obey quickly when I ask, then the next time I ask her I'll add a warning-"mommy will ask one more time then ____ will happen." I then ask one more time with the reminder of _____ (whatever I decide is the "punishment") and if she doesn't obey I then carry out the punishment. Then I make her say sorry, telling her she is saying sorry because she didn't obey (not using that word but because she didn't pick up a toy or because of whatever.) and make her hug me. I only use that stuff-or any real form of punishment-when I'm getting frustrated and had to ask her a few times to do it. Other times, like your friend Rachael, I will physically help her to do it. If I call and she doesn't come, I'll physically bring her to me, telling her she needs to come when mommy calls, or if I asked her to pick up toys and she runs away I will go get her, hand her a toy and tell her she needs to help. But I've been really fortunate that she is pretty compliant. Which is lucky, because honestly whatever "punishment" i decide to dole out when I warn her, she honestly doesn't care. She sort of looks at me, gets she did something wrong, but doesn't seem to care that much that she got punished. I hope this random babbling is helpful.

For your friend Rachel, I would love to hear more about "first time obedience" and her take on it. I have another friend who believes very strongly in it and would like to hear another side to the story.

Good luck, Hang in there!

Atwood-Family of 3 January 2, 2008 at 7:29 AM  

Ps. I also do a lot of "talking to" and face to face stuff. If she hits for example (which doesn't really happen) I will grab her immediately, hold her close to my face and tell her very sternly she cannot hit. That is something I tend to do more when I am in public and I feel I can't really press and issue too much because of an audience. (Ie, I can't ask her 12 times to do it while she decides to match me and cry for 12x of asking, you know?) She does seem to get this when I do it.

So to sum up, most of our discipline is a talking to (and it's not nearly as bad as it might sound-i'm not mean mommy at all) or physically helping her to obey. The warning and follow through of punishment only comes out when I want her to obey on her own w/o my help-which is something she will eventually have to do, and that probably happens only a few times a week.


Rachael January 2, 2008 at 9:59 AM  

First Time Obedience and why I disagree with it (long, of course, lol!):

Firstly, I should define my terms. When I say 'first time obedience' I mean the idea that when I tell my child to do something, he immediately complies without any warning/pleading/repeating, that he does so with a cheerful attitude.

I don't believe this is biblical, and in addition have seen in the lives of adults how it has wreaked havoc on their personal boundaries and decision-making skills. Being trained "obey obey obey" above all else led to them being very vulnerable from adults and authority figures who wanted to harm them - b/c they were taught that to say 'no' to an authority figure was a sin, and that to question others' motives or reasons was equally wrong.

But let's get back to the beginning:

Firstly, I don't see it modeled in Scripture. We are called to obey God, but the Bible is full of examples of people for whom obedience was a process - it wasn't immediate and happy, it was difficult and full of doubt/pain and God still honored their final actions as right and didn't condemn their waiting.

My model for parenting is the teachings of Jesus and how God parents his children - and I don't see first-time obedience illustrated throughout Scripture.

A few bible stories that illustrate this:

1. Jesus in the Garden of Gesthemene.

Mark 14
34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."

35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[e] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Jesus struggled with what he had to do - he wasn't 'joyful' about the Cross, and he honestly dialogued with God about how he was so sorrowful about his task and asked if possible for it to be removed. But in a first-time obedience home, such a negative atittude or asking would not be tolerated and would be punished as 'sin'. Ted Tripp in Shepherding a Child's Heart (which says first-time obedience is biblical) has a story where he spanks his child again because her attitude wasn't right yet after the first punishment. I don't believe in punishing for feelings - teaching right ways to handle them, removing ac hild from the room if they can't get it under control - sure. But punish them for being upset? I don't see that in Scripture *anywhere*.

2. Jesus' the Parable of the Two Sons:
Matthew 21:28-31

The Parable of the Two Sons

28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

One of the tenets of the FTO movement is "Delayed obedience is disobedience" - but this parable makes very clear that Jesus doesn't view it that way. If He doesn't view us that way, why would I view my children's actions that way?

3. Moses - Exodus 3-4 (read on www.biblegateway.com)

There is *long* dialogue between Moses and God after he is told to go to Egypt. He asks for additional help, he gives reasons his mission will fail, he is afraid - and God doesn't get punish him for that, he gives him additional tools to help him obey. The only time he gets angry is when Moses flat out says he won't do it *after* God has shown him all the signs/wonders, but God doesn't punish him for it - he lets Moses know he's crossed the line, that he IS going, yet still supplies what Moses asks for (Aaron to speak for him).

I see this as an excellent model for dealing with my own children - I tell them to do something, I come alongside to help them do it, if they are persisting in resisting I will let them know they have crossed the line and it *will* get done one way or another (i.e., you stop kicking your legs or I will help you stop kicking them - setting a boundary).

4. The Scripture verses talking about obedience say "Children, obey your parents" - not, "parents, make your children obey you" (similar to "wives, submit to your husbands" doesn't say "husbands, make your wives submit to you") - obedience is something the Holy Spirit has to work in the heart of my child and that I will do my best to teach and model, but it's not something I can ultimately control.

I can control outward actions (to an extent), I cannot control their heart (despite what some authors say about spanking and their discipline style being a key to the heart - i know too many adults raised in those environments who put on a fake face for their parents to avoid punishment but their heart was actually not cheerfully obedient).

5. Another reason I oppose FTO is because of the effect it has on one's spiritual development. When you are taught that only FTO with a cheerful attitude is acceptable, and everything else is sin and worhty of punishment, you develop a fearful view of God as one who is waiting to strike you down whenever you mess up - gossipped about someone? Watch out, God's going to 'spank' you somehow to punish you. Forgot to do your devotions today? That is a sin and you need to repent.

Christianity becomes about performance and perfection instead of about relationship to God.

If you read Jesus' parable above, performance/perfection is not what He was looking for - he wanted hearts that loved him and obey him out of that love, not people who are trying to measure up and be perfect out of fear of punishment.


Practical reasons to oppose FTO:

It does not equip children to protect themselves as they grow older.

One of the tenets of FTO is complete submission to authority - without thinking first. Stopping to think or ask questions about why you were asked to do something is considered *disobedience* (though if you read the Moses story God doesn't treat Moses' initial questions that way).

According to FTO, you as the parent should not give explanations of the 'why' behind what you told your child to do - they should obey immediately based on your parental authority. This 'no questioning, you don't need to know the reasons, you just need to obey' sets the stage for vulnerability as they grow. Because not all adults exercise authority appropriately, and kids need to be empowered to recognize when someone is telling them something wrong and ask for clarifiation before obeying.

I was raised in a non FTO home, and I am really glad of it - I was not involved in power struggles with my parents, they raised us to think for ourselves and always gave us the reason behind their rules which helped me follow them (and gave me faith that when God asks me to do something, even if I don't know the reason, He has one).

But I know quite a few women who were raised with FTO and later were involved in abusive relationships b/c they didn't feel they were able to say 'no' to what was happening - the submission/compliance was so deeply ingrained and they hadn't been taught to stand up for themselves at all. They hadn't been taught to think abotu *why* someone was telling them to do something or treat them that way. They truly believed they had been 'bad' to merit 'punishment' from their boyfriends b/c that is what they learned growing up - obedience and submission brings happiness, questions what you're told or delaying brings deserved punishment.


Now, I *do* believe in teaching compliance to what I say and I don't sit there and say "Pick up your toys" 30 times waiting for him to do it - I spring into action after the first request or two, helping him to do it. With an older child, Iw ould set a logical consequence such as "If you don't get your toys cleaned up by 7:00 then there won't be time to watch a movie."

I most definitely believe in consequences and teaching and discipline, but not from a FTO perspective, but from a 'equip them with skills for life' perspective.

Plus, depending on your child's personality type, FTO can totally backfire. If they are people-pleasing and compliant like me, the child will seek your approval and to obey for that. But if they are like my husband, he would see the illogic of 'obey b/c i said so even though it doesn't make sense' and it would create a LOT of relatonal issues between parents and kids (it's partly based on his experience growing up and how his parents' attempt at FTO was totally ineffective for him that I don't want to do it with my kids and hurt our relationship and their respect for me - b/c that's what happened to him).

So that is what I think.

Rachael January 2, 2008 at 10:04 AM  

I want to clarify something from my previous post:

When I say 'first time obedience' I mean the idea that when I tell my child to do something, he immediately complies without any warning/pleading/repeating, that he does so with a cheerful attitude.

I am not saying that experiencing this is unbiblical - I love it when my son obeys the first time I ask him to do something! There's nothing wrong with that, or rejoicing when our kids obey that way.

What i'm saying is that to make 'FTO with a happy heart' the measure of whether our children's behavior is acceptable or our ultimate parenting goal is not biblical and can be detrimental for reasons outlined above.

Anonymous January 2, 2008 at 10:06 AM  

I am new to blogging and found you at MyBlogLog. I love your site and your son is precious.

A few things that work for me are these. First, don't let your lad think that obeying you is an option. As another reader said, in the case of the kicking, command him to stop and physically arrest the action, hold his legs down. If he repeats the action carry out a time out. My 2-year-old often giggles in time out as well but if she repeats the action that got here there she goes right back. Eventually she gets tired of being there and its not funny anymore.

A really wonderful site on discipline is http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/. It's a great resource.

As for spanking, I think it can be effective but only if used correctly and I think that's hard for most parents. I only use it rarely in the case of dangerous actions like pulling away from me in a parking lot or such.

You are right about being consistent, that is the basic key to any successful discipline strategy.

B January 2, 2008 at 1:44 PM  

I so know what you mean! Adrien is 20 months old...and starting into the terrible twos already. His new favorite words are NO! (screamed repeatedly) and MINE! (also screamed repeatedly).

His favorite sentence? Well of course it's "That's my ____!!!" Generally it is not his. There was a big truck next to us at the gas station the other day. He kept saying "That's mine." Empathically.

I don't know what to do either. My husband is a spanker. But I just really don't think he gets it. Ya know? It never phases him. A few pats on the rear end do nothing for this kid. Nothing. And It would be impossible to put him in time out.

All I know is that I'm about to pull my hair out.

I have no advice, just sympathy. Adrien is very willful, and like your son, he often has that sideways grin on his face about the time he keeps doing what I tell him not to do. He knows exactly what he's up to.

Blah. So here's to two year olds! As my son would say "woohoo".

Farrah January 2, 2008 at 3:24 PM  

Rachael~ I am SO grateful for your responses. I have read the FTO one a couple times now and I totally agree. I am not interested in brainwashing him, only teaching him how to obey and what proper behavior is. I would love to talk with you more about this since you have obviously thought/researched this way more than I have.

April~ I am glad that you have found something that works with Anne. I have been trying the "talking it out" thing with Lucas and I feel I need something a little more distinctive at this stage, more of an intentional plan. :)

Rain~ Thanks for visiting my blog. I always love finding new friends. I checked out that website...10kids!!! WOW!!! I can't wait to delve a little deeper into what they have to say.

B~ I knew you would sympathize. We both have strong-willed boys. Someone told me once that I will be glad Lucas is strong-willed when he get s older. I may have a harder time teaching and shaping him now but once he is older he will not be easily pulled from what he knows is true and right. Hopeful thought anyway.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I have been thinking about them all day.... lots to think about. I value all of you.

Rachael January 2, 2008 at 4:26 PM  

I'd love to chat more! Send me an email at racquel2003 at yahoo dot com and we can chat more and figure out another time to get together so our boys can play.

I used to be part of the godly tomatoes site a few years ago but found that the first-time obedience teachings and discipline mindset had a really adversarial and negative effect on my teaching and classroom management - to the point that it severely damaged my relationships with several of my students that took a long time to repair.

Once I realized what an impact the site's ideas were having on me I stopped going there and left the message board community. The site owner is very nice, but I would say be discerning about her ideas.

I joined GCM a few months later which really helped create a much more positive classroom atmosphere.

It made a big impact on me - the way my discipline mindset so strongly affected my relationship with my students and classroom atmosphere, and I decided to be very deliberate about what kind of philosophy I established in our home as I disciplined my kids. So that's kind of what started my whole journey.

TwoSquareMeals January 2, 2008 at 9:04 PM  

I'm so sorry about the Gators. I was really pulling for them. So was Hobbes. I would yell, "Come on, Tebow!" and he would yell "dom don, deebow!" I really wish you had been there to see it. He was soooo into that game. And I so wanted Michigan to lose!

Anyway, onto the discipline thing. I have no idea! I am so glad you wrote this post and that Rachael responded. She and everyone else had great ideas. Calvin has always been pretty easy to discipline since he talked early and is compliant. His biggest problem is emotional meltdown, and our biggest problem is getting him calmed down and not getting angry and spanking.

Hobbes...well, he's a challenge. I like the idea of physically helping a child obey because Hobbes is very tactile. Spankings do work for him. We have only had to give him a few serious ones and now just the threat is enough. (We only do that for direct disobedience...you know, the sort where he looks at us, hears what we say, does the opposite and looks back to see what our reaction will be.)

In general, both boys only get spankings for direct defiance, not because they are distracted but because they are intentionally defying. They only get spankings after they have been given a warning and still don't obey. Time outs are reserved for when they have meltdowns and need to calm or when they are fighting with each other. (Although, at Calvin's age, time outs may be effective for giving him a chance to change his attitude and do what I ask.)

Sorry this is rambling, but the post and comments really made me think. We sort of halfheartedly try the FTO thing. I understand the arguments for it. I also understand the arguments against it. I think there is a balance. We try to make the boys obey the first time, and they get great praise if they do. We also aren't consistent with it because sometimes it is just too harsh. Sometimes Calvin's "why's" are really good questions that we need to answer before we go on with the task.

Not sure it that helps, but it helped me to ramble a bit!

Catherine January 2, 2008 at 9:11 PM  

Wow, Holy Lots Of Comments! I need to go back and read all of them because I am SO right there with you....

...and, I caught the last two second of the game, and my heart broke for you... :(

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